Since I cant argue the point there...

I'll pass. Spelling my name correctly would be nice.

That's it, Stony!! "Put another log on the fire"!!!!!
"the Stew thickens"
I'm halfway up or down the staircase.. Can't remember which way I was going

Okay you asked for it. Gary Hiteshaw did the analysis on Railwire. I won't even pretend to understand the math. Here are the screen shots of how he came up with the midpoints and logo placement I shared. Be warned, this is is some pretty crazy calculations!





The guys at Railwire also posted this photo. I know, not the same class of loco, but this logo is way off from center!



Crazy isn't it?

Rob

Okay back, you asked for it...
"Quote from: ztrack on November 18, 2013, 09:21:24 PM

Fix the artwork?? Didn't Gary's analysis show the logos are off center on the prototype 10 - 20%... just as AZL produced? And I quote:

"Note that the qualitative conclusions that the logos should be ~10-20% from the midline still hold." So if we 'fixed' them, then we would make the center which would be incorrect? Man my brain hurts. I do like Tom's idea to include the analysis it in the box. But I think we would need a bigger box!! LOL! I actually think this would be a great blog for the AZL site.

Gary great job and thanks for putting this to rest. But I promise, the next release's logos are centered.... but should they be? Hmmm...

Rob"

Quoting Mike Skibbe answering you:

"No, he concluded that the prototype photo was off center, but the model was even more off center.

You're still not off the hook and these still haven't been comparisons to the actual prototypes you're producing.

All we've seen proved so far is that two steam engines have had the logo offset from center a minimal distance."

You should work on your spelling, it's Gary Hinshaw and Karin. Also work on the humility a little. Just like me you cannot be right all of the time but you seem to think so. Be kind to those who strongly disagree with you, center the heralds and the complaints will vaporize.

Mr.JA wrote:

markm wrote: Of course... I still believe the earth is flat. Don't believe me? Look at all our layouts.

Hey, you can't say that about my modules. I'm the guy who has mountain peaks where they don't belong......like too high to put under the shelf above

To quote a line from a western......"people people people"

I have no dog, cat or aardvark in this fight, so I really don't give a hoot, so I can honestly say, I don't care if the logo is correct or not.

I think my philosophy on model railroading is the correct one........"if it goes around twice without falling off, then I'm having a good day."

Good evening folks.

I'm afraid that I don't understand all the fuss about the logo placement when there are so many other defects with the Mikado:
The lettering color is wrong.
The roof color is wrong.
There's no feed water preheater.
Where's the backup light?
The water hatch doesn't open.
It doesn't belch smoke.
It doesn't even have an engineer who waves at you as the engine passes!

BTW: that was humor.

I'm a real rivet counter and I find fault with every model I own. In the end I tolerate those fault because they are minor compared to the features. I don't think the logo placement is that big a fault compared with what we get in the loco. If one really doesn't like the placement, 50 cents of black paint and a sheet of Microscale decals (60-15) will let you put it any place you want.

Just a thought: with all the noise about the logo placement, I wonder if any manufacturer will want to produce new Burlington stock?

Rob,
Stony is right about the transformation calculations, they can be error prone without proper reference points. But what I don't understand is why a B&M loco was used to determine the placement of a CB&Q logo?

Mark

Mark, LOL! Way to go Mark, point out all of those faults. Next things you will say is the locomotive is actually electric and doesn't run on steam!

The B&M loco was posted on Railwire as a joke since it is clear the logo is off. I didn't post it on Railwire by the way. Truly guys, I don't know the math, and it sounds like Stony get it as clear as day.

Now again Z scalers, get back to running trains! Go have some fun!

Loren the aardvark is in the mail…

Rob

ztrack wrote: Loren the aardvark is in the mail…
Rob

I'm going to be real whizzed if my aardvark shows up without being house trained.

I attended my first train show in 1 1/2 years last weekend and was supposed to take my new Mikado to run. Well, you guessed it, I forgot to pack it.....Definitely my bad!

Now that my train room is ready for action I'm going to have fun running it all by myself. :o)

markm wrote:


Just a thought: with all the noise about the logo placement, I wonder if any manufacturer will want to produce new Burlington stock?



Mark

Probably not. I sent MTL 2 CB&Q engine shells to be repainted, the tops were silver and not grey. This was about 3 years ago. I just wrote them off and sold off the guts.

I didn´t jump in until what I seen at railwire. It is NOT so much about the placement of heralds. It is about the placement of honesty. Karin hit the nail right on the head. Just say we goofed, we cant fix it and we will do better next time.
I understand in the corporate and the political world, people just cant do that. They never take responsibility. Lawyers wont let them.
One can twist and turn and double talk and crawdad and quibble all day. It is then no longer about the facts, it is then about honesty, judgement and character, and how people perceive it.
I am not out on a one man campaign to drive people out of Z (think I am an agent from the HO guys?) All I want is to get something out of the box and run it, without having to paint, saw, sand putty, cut off, glue on or decal it, in order for it to look somewhat accurate.

Kelley,

I never thought you were on a vendetta or anything like that. I've found that most Z scalers (myself included) are passionate about their work. And while your 1927 document is pretty conclusive, the AZL folks seemed just as certain with the math. I've done the calculations myself many times are know that without the right image, errors can easy creep in.

I found this thread interesting because it gave me the chance to research a road that previously thought of only as the other end of the "California Zephyr." In my research, I found that there is still a slight possibility the AZL placement is correct. Several sources report that the CB&Q "experimented" with the logo placement 1925-1927. I haven't been able to find any image from that era that would support a different placement. In fact, the only "Burlington Route" image I can find that I would be willing to use for logo placement is:

www.burlingtonroute.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=1&pid=201#top_display_media

Count the fence links.

As far as a manufacturer owning to mistakes, I figure there are different ways to own it. MTL also confused silver/grey on some UP passenger cars. They repainted them for me (eventually). To me that's a good response. Since AZL doesn't have a manufacturing capability to do this, I expect when they release my Colorado & Southern 800-series units (the last job for the CB&Q units) they will be decorated perfectly.

Mark

All,

Let's take this offline. It is getting out of hand. This should never have started on this forum, it is damaging the fun nature of this site. If you have an issue with a manufacturer then contact that manufacturer directly offline. If you want to discuss issues with a manufacturer with your friends then contact them offline. This is the type of stuff that drove people away from the Yahoo Z_Scale site. Stony I recommend stopping this discussion.

John

I disagree. There is nothing wrong with this thread. If we can't discuss pros and cons, accuracy or mistakes, one technique versus another... what's the point of having a forum? If you don't like a thread... DON'T READ IT! This thread doesn't affect or reflect anything else on this site. The comments in this thread do not reflect the views of only one person. Both sides of this discussion have valid points.

This site is not a private club. Folks come here to find out information, without being members or even wanting to post. Some folks might even come here to read about one manufacture versus another, or one product versus another.

Spent 30 years off and on at a job where I had to keep my mouth shut and swim with the current, and with the other fish. Even when it was over a waterfall.

I think there were a few other factors when it came to the Yahoo group. I will not get into that brier patch.

Forums should be free discussions. One can agree or not agree with others, or just scroll on to something else. Everyone will not agree 100 percent here or anywhere else in life. Trust me, if there is a subject I don´t want to read I just skip over it.

But that is my 2 euro cents.

Let's get this cleared up; we are not welcome to discuss any "possible" flaws in a manufacturer's product here because...? If AZL, MTL, Stonebridge Models, Intermountain, etc, etc, came out with a product that any person(s) feel was not quite correct we don't have the right to talk about it on this or any other model railroad forum? What you're saying is that we have to stifle our opinion if it is "negative" towards them and if we say anything it has to be "good job" "fine work" "awesome"? That is bias, that is not discussion, that is just wrong.

I'm generally opposed to a discussion being closed down or edited so long as there is meaningful discourse. Otherwise it becomes a waste of bandwidth.

In the case of this thread, I think the logo placement is pretty much a dead horse. If one wants to talk about imaging for modeling or the perils of image manipulation or Burlington route paint schemes, IMHO there's still a lot to be said.

Mark

Geez, I guess I should drop in more often. Reminds me of the good old days. That said, I don't care whether the logo placement was correct or not. There is always at least one prototype that can prove our points. I look at this issue strictly as a consumer. If made to choose between a centered logo or one off by 5% I would choose the centered. It doesn't matter if this was manufacture error or not. The vast majority of us are used to order and centering logos would be right for us. Manufacturers would be best served if they centered logos and names in this case. Jim

Stony,

Delete my account. I am withdrawing from this forum.

John