Goo goo gaa gaa, really?!

It seems as if you must always talk proper modeling verbiage if you are a forum to be taken seriously. According to ztrains.com baby talk is not acceptable. Baby talk. Z scale baby talk? Where did that come from and why is it being brought up? Now, one must wonder which forum Mr. Cubbin is talking about. Wouldn’t be Railwire, no sir. Would it be Trainboard? Not likely. Z Yahoo? Pretty much dying on the vine so I doubt it is that one. Thus I will assume he is speaking of this forum, Z Central Station unless I am told what Z forum might be left that I am missing.

Granted, this format is not for everyone but I don’t think any other Z forum is for everyone either. It sounds to me that he is implying that informality is cheapening the scale. Here at ZCS friends gather, and often. Is it the majority of the members? Not at all. We don’t worry about who and how many. Modeling is most certainly spoken here and in fact there are many contests encouraging and challenging modelers of all skill levels. But apparently this isn’t good enough. For what its worth it is good enough for me. To talk strictly modeling and nothing but modeling is in a word “boring” to me. Guess that shows you where I stand, certainly not with serious modelers, anymore at least.

I believe that insulting other’s participation in Z scale forums is about as negative as you can get, especially when you are trying to promote yourself as ztrains is doing. Over there he is contemplating a new forum and may even charge you to join and you will be strictly moderated. No thank you.

Loren,
I do not believe that John was singling out ZCS but that he was making a general statement across the board of how some topics on all forums sometimes get off subject. Personal attacks are not his style.

I think one of the great things about ZCS is the "Just for Fun" section where people can just talk about whatever they want to. Trainboard has a similar section "The Cattle Car" and MMRForum.com has "The Railroad Parlor Car". Each of these are good venues for folks to chat, blow off steam or just "talk". None of these are for me, they’re neither good nor bad just not for me. If I want to talk with someone I will try my best to use the phone to personally talk with them but to each his/her own.

There has been a lot of bashing and negative comments going on all around on public and private web sites (in reality there is no such a thing as "private" on the internet it’s there forever and if you print it everyone will eventually read it) and it concerns me. What I have noticed is that emotions across the Z community are getting heated, people are on the offense and defense and camps are being formed. This negativity is being generated by both businesses and individuals who have visions of what Z should be. It is getting ugly and people are forgetting that this is a hobby (for some of us like you and me it’s also a small non-profit making business).

I wish that all of us would curb the comments, cool the emotions and just focus on the great hobby of model railroading.

Wishing you all a safe and Happy Thanksgiving!

John Bartolotto

John,
That was not me that wrote the above, but Karin. I can't formulate thoughts that well. I think Karin was expressing what some folks feel themselves. To each his or her own. She was simply expressing how she felt just as John was expressing his feelings and each one of us is entitled to feel and think any way we wish.

You're so right, we often do get off topic, but I am not convinced the world will come to an end if we continue in that sort of wayward behavior.

I am not sure camps are being formed, but it is very evident that all of us have opinions and feelings that define how we look at this hobby.

I am wondering just how should this hobby be? I think it can and should be whatever anyone wants it to be for them personally. When we try to force our thinking onto someone else then that is where problems arise.

No one should try to control the hobby in any manner. While all of the manufacturers want to do well in sales, it is pretty much a fantasy to think that anyone could make their living strictly on Z scale.

I myself have done so little modeling since becoming a dealer and manufacturer. It is sadly true that when you make your hobby a business, a lot of the joy goes out of the whole experience. I guess you could say that you can't easily mix business with pleasure.

For me, the time spent in the shop working on my trains are some of the most satisfying and enjoyable times I have ever spent.

Getting to share what I am doing and also sharing what others are doing is both fun and educational. And only those who attend train shows as part of a group such as BAZ or ZoCal get to experience the 'fun' of that unique time.

I guess we all need to let each other be what we want to be and if someone wants to form a forum where the guidelines are stricter, then that is fine. After all, we're still able to come and go and do as we please in this great country.

Speaking of which, I am thankful to be healthy, warm, have a loving wife, friends to share this hobby with and last but not least, train shows to attend. Which reminds me, tomorrow is set up day for our Medford RR show and I've lots to do before then. I better dust off the track and load up.

Let's all allow each other to come and go as we wish and also to express our sentiments as we wish. There's plenty of space in which to do all of that.

Oh, and John, "non profit"? Hey, I gotta pay for track somehow.

Happy Thanksgiving to all,
Loren

Loren and Karin,

My apologies. I saw Stonebridge Models, didn’t see a name at the end of the message and assumed. Sorry.
All the best,

John

I wrote a reply to Mr Cubbin's piece right on his website... but it got me to thinking. I thought of a lot of things I was thankful for today, Thanksgiving. Mostly I was thankful to my girlfriend for being there for me, for putting up with me, and for putting up with Z scale (something she has very little interest in). But I'm also thankful for yous guys being around to help make this hobby fun.

I've got one LHS (local hobby shop) 30 miles away that carries a handful of z scale cars - literally, a handful. The next nearest place, I suppose is about 2 hours away, which carries quite a bit more, but the point is that there is simply no Z scale in MY area. No Z scale, no groups, no clubs or no module runners. Besides asking at the LHS's, I've even gone so far as to put an ad on Craigslist.com looking for people in my area - nada... nada thing anywhere. So online Z scale ends up being my local Z scale group, and without you folks, it wouldn't be as near as fun or worthwhile.

Joe

John,

What's with this sorry bit? No apology necessary. We're in this Z madness together.......ain't it great!!!!

I replied on his site as well, but since were talking about this, lets go! I took personal offense to his piece. I have been talking about my son a lot on chat. I felt it wa a direct attack on me. Regardless, there are blogs that modlers have that describe all their work With the pictures and how to articles that are much better suited for this kind of hobby than a forum. To me a forum is a place to relax with friends of a like minded ilk. I don't respond well to elitists taking over a forum and systematically taking all the fun out of it. There is a reason forums like that fail. Ie the yahoo ghost town. There are only so many proto things that can be river counted only so many times. Besides if I want to know the answer to how many rivets is on an sd70 I can ask google. The need to cling to a bbs style forum is being eliminated for research. That being said its a great place to talk and show off work and ideas. Its also a good place for like minded people to blow of steam (no pun intended). Its like a sports bar for train people.
As to letting people make it their own hobby, I agree whole heartedly. If we think about the entire industry I would bet the highest selling locos in units and overall margins are the Thomas the train sets. If people were allowed to have fun in the hobby I dont think it would be going the way of the dodo. Sometimes people must just want to have fun and we might have to get off our high horses once in a while and let them. Even go so far as to encourage it!

One more thing in response to camps being formed. I think with such a small market the focus would be on helping each other. Industry leaders shouldcome together to expand the industry.There is enough pie for everyone to have a piece. Team with and variety will bring legitimacy to the scale. In fighting and bickering won't. Every manufacturer lost in Z brings the scale one step closer to extinction. Z should pride itself on community and customer service. Things the big guys can't do.

I know how you feel. I;m the only z scaler in the texas panhandle. The nearist z scaler to me.
Is Stony Smith down in south texas. There are two hobby shops in my town. Both of them only
sell n scale or larger. so if I want to buy anything, I buy it on line, from various sites.
the only friend I have in z, are the one I made on z central. They are a bunch of nice guys.
I enjoy there frind ship very much. I can always count on one of them to help me out, when
I've got a problem. I hope everything works out for you. If there is anything that I might be able to help you with. dont hesitate to ask. I was told a long time ago that the only stupid question
is the one you dont ask. Good luck. and all the best for you.

You feel bad Kin?..How about Joe and I who live in MTL country and we can't get anyone else to join us for Z scale. There's just gotta be someone out there in our neighborhood who simply hasn't discovered that we exist.

We do have a nice couple from my church wanting to come and help this weekend at our train show. I'll believe it when I see it, but hey, beggars can't be choosers.

Tomorrow at 8am Joe, Karin and I are having breakfast together and then Joe and I will set up for this weekend's train show.

Finally.......some fun for a change.

Zac... do NOT take personal offense. You are correct when stating that forums that enforce strict rules quickly become filled with a handful of elitist. Let them... I won't be welcomed and I won't be a member.

You and Brian have recent new-borns... Stony and a few others have recent grandkids... some of us have fur-kidZ. Z Central Station is like a family or a FRIENDLY club. Would folk really meet on a weekly basis and be able to enjoy talking with each other about ONLY trains and Z? No one would walk into the club without someone else asking, "Hey... How are you? How is the family? How is work? Blah, blah, blah." ? Would the first thing out of someone's mouth be, "Did you finish DCCing my loco?"

Not the club for me... or group or forum.

ZCS is my "home". I've been in Japan for more than 18 years now. Through chat and the various FRIENDLY folkz... I've been able to keep in touch with the USA. I've shared a lot of personal stuff with a small group of folkz here. I truly value the many folkz I've come to "know" through ZCS. I'm greatly appreciative that John Kellett won the bidding and took over ZCS. Without John, Stony and few others... I'm sure ZCS would have turned into a dust bowl, as some of the other forums have.

Does that mean we all have to agree 100%? Absolutely not. I know I rub a bunch of folkz the wrong way. Gee... sorry... call the waaabulance. Do other folkz rub me the wrong way? You bet... and, they have the freedom to do so. I take none of it personally.

Anyway... I'm glad Karin started this thread. She is now officially inducted into the Z-scale Trouble-makers Hall of Fame. Maybe I'm the unofficial head of that group... or, should I be the rearend?

Mr.JA wrote: Zac... Z Central Station is like a family........

Yeah Alex,it is like a family all right, but mom likes you best because you have more choo choos than me......

I've shared a lot of personal stuff with a small group of folkz here.

Yeah, and I'm going to write a book about you and get rich....oh ha ha ha

Do other folkz rub me the wrong way? You bet...

Surely you can't be talking about me dear Alex......I always butter you up and agree with everything you say..

Anyway... I'm glad Karin started this thread. She is now officially inducted into the Z-scale Trouble-makers Hall of Fame. Maybe I'm the unofficial head of that group... or, should I be the rearend?

I was one of the first trouble makers and I'm proud of it.

Ok, we now return you to our regularly scheduled boredom and dullness.

Everyone have a good day in spite of me. I'm off to set up for our train show

I've read that article as well and believe me, no one should take any offense at it at all.

What we have to take into account, and I think this is a point missed by mr Cubbins in his article, is relative populations.
Z scale has, compared to the larger scales, a small population of modellers.
Now we have to take into account that in any scale there is only a smallish percentage of people who will participate in online forums or whom are considered serieus modellers.
Now consider both of the above, serieus modellers who participate in online forums we are talking an even smaller percentage... let's say 5% overall, ballpark figure, could be more, could be less.
Then take into account the number of people willing to put in the work to maintain a website/forums/online community, which is going to be a whole lot less still, less than 1% I would wager.

Now lets step away from modelling and into the area of forums in general, the more popular a topic is, the more different forums/discussion boards what have you are dedicated to it and each of those will have their own style and feel.
Hence for the person wanting to participate they will have it easier to find a forum they like, and particapte in, the more popular the subject of discussion is.
Also, on any given forum, the number of active partipants is but a percentage of the overall visitors, many just read and look for information but the amount of people taking the effort to participate is a lot smaller.

Now switching to Z central station, a Z scale forum known for being friendly, chatty and laid back. Known for quality people and a positive atmosphere above all, a place where you will get advice if needed but can just hang out if you want as well(which, to be honest, is why I visit this place)

Now let us consider the other dedicated Z scale forums, oh wait, there aren't any really.
Sure there is the Yahoo list (which is as good as dead mainly (IMHO) due to the user unfriendly, archaic system used) or a subsection on Trainboard or somesuch but how many dedicated Z scale fora are there? That get any traffic at all? Apart from this one? None that I know of.

No, if mr Cubbins wishes for a serieus Z scale modelling forum he will have to start one on his site and I already know what he is going to find out after a while if he does: most of his members will be people from here, from Trainboard or from the old Yahoo lists.
And do you know why? Because the active online Z scale community is really, really small.

Now let us all enjoy our weekend and get back to our fun

I like to keep abreast of what’s going on at the more popular Z websites but I don’t get over to ZTrains.com as much as I probably should. I might have missed this “news” had you not brought it to our attention. Thank you Karin, I needed a good laugh.

And I laughed because Z scale is so full of, quote baby talk unquote, it’s surprising anyone can put up with all of the goo-goo, gaa-gaa BS that goes on. When I say baby talk I don’t mean the simply “being human” chatter, that goes on back and forth in the forums/chat room. What goes on there is mostly… just being friendly… at least it is at ZCentralStation.com anyway. We have a solid core of nice people that like to get together here. Some of them visit other Z places on the Internet, some of them, I’m sure rarely visit anywhere else. But they have come to call ZCentral, a home away from home. It’s nice here. And to be fair here, Mr. Cubbin did not actually point the finger specifically at ZCentralStation. I’m sure, if asked, he would say he was speaking of all forums within earshot. At least that’s what I would say if I were he.

No, I’m NOT speaking of the talk in the forums here even if someone once used the words goo-goo, gaa-gaa. I’m speaking of the scale as a whole. Or, for that matter, model railroading in general. I believe it, what I call “baby talk” just seems more prevalent in Z scale because we are a smaller group of people. It’s the whining, the backstabbing, all of the petty little bickering that goes on mostly behind the scenes. All of the talk that goes on behind other backs, putting another down, and belittling them etc., etc. THAT is what I call “baby talk” and it happens all of the time, to the point I don’t think we even realize we’re doing it anymore, nor would most of us care to admit to it. And I agree Zac (Mr. White), it needs to stop.

Even Mr. Cubbin is a bit guilty of what I consider “baby talk” in his article. Johns speaks of talking with “few really good guys“ that no longer frequent the forums, and then goes on to make out like the reason is because of the people that write in these forums… going so far as to say they talk like babies. Saying what he said in his article, to me, is a bit babyish in itself. But John is a businessman. He has a new product he’s thinking of putting out there, and this product wouldn’t include the people he calls babies anyway, so what does it matter how he puts down these other forum posters? They’re the newbies, the goof-balls and goof-offs. You know; the people that don’t matter – the undesirables. They don’t matter to him and his new forum. You might want to keep this in mind when doing business with Mr. Cubbin IF you fall into his “baby category” and it offends you.

And yes Kurt (Ryuen), you’re absolutely correct when you say the Z community is small. If there are 4 bidders on something “cool” up for auction on eBay, you can bet your butt 3 of them visit the ZCentralStation Chat Room on a regular basis. I just wish there was a way to enlighten the rest of the masses that are buying Z scale, that places like ZCentralStation.com exist. I know a lot of people are afraid to go into a chat room or forum and participate. And I know John and Stony do an excellent job of welcoming in new members when they do join in. It’s just, how do we get them here in the first place. I’ll tell you one thing… it’s certainly not by being elitist and talking only trains.

BUT, and this is a big but too, a LOT of people are even more afraid or unwilling to jump into a conversation when the conversation is personal. And there lies the rub. They need to feel comfortable enough to join in, and yet it is very difficult to feel comfortable in a situation until one does, in fact, join in.

We need more new faces joining into this scale and John can’t afford to advertise every place or on radio/television, so it’s up to us to drag people here – kicking and screaming all the way, if that’s what it takes. Name drop all you can. Be as big a promoter of Z scale as you can before it does like Zac says and goes as extinct as the Dodo bird!

Joe

The real issue here isn't about our different tastes in forums at all. It also isn't about whether an elite pay-to-join forum will be viable or desirable or not.

It is, however, all about someone in the Z public eye degrading a forum that many fellow Z scalers like to call their Z home. Insulting the way in which other modelers and/or collectors gather to post or to chat is the epitome of unnecessary negativity that other notable members of the Z community have complained about. BTW, chat should NOT be considered in the equation a bit since it is not comparing apples to apples and is in itself a relaxed atmosphere.

Mr. Cubbin, who does not participate in any Z forum on a regular basis by the way, is quoted as saying:
"It really is unfortunate that a few people chose to take this and make it personal instead of the tongue-in-cheek title it was. I didn’t mention any specific forums or people."
So, it is tongue in cheek? But in his editorial to which I have objected he says:
"Maybe it’s the fact that we’re in what some consider to be a cute scale but I’m so tired of reading a promising forum thread that degrades into some weird mix of baby talk (I wish I was kidding about this) and inside jokes."
He isn't kidding he says. And if it isn't Z Central Station he was referring to then where is all this baby talk happening, and why was it worth chumming the waters with such rude and childish comments out of the blue?

Once again I say it, if it was to make his proposed new forum look more appealing at the cost of insulting many folks who are proven to be active on other Z forums I think his way of drumming up business was a poor choice of methods.

Every time I read the part of Mr. Cubbin’s statement that goes; ”... but I’m so tired of reading a promising forum thread that degrades into some weird mix of baby talk ...“, I ask myself, maybe the thread had run it’s course?

I see that quite often. A topic starts off strong… someone might toss in a what they feel is a funny quip, but others will sidestep the funny (?) remark, and the thread continues strong – Strong because there might still be important things to be said on the subject. Later others may add off-subject remarks or personalize the thread, and at some point it starts to fizzle out all on its own. There’s always a chance that the thread may be revitalized with newer information down the line, and it again could go strong for a time before, again, fizzling out turning into personalized dibble. Even a 1000 yard spool of thread runs out and comes to an end sometime.

Other times I see a post turn to what John calls “baby talk” almost from the start. If a subject isn’t important or popular with the majority of those forums readers, then it probably doesn’t stand a chance of staying strong on the subject for very long.

But we’re not writing a book here. We don’t need these posts to be edited for real world publishing. And we’re intelligent beings that can edit out the material in our minds almost as instantly as we come upon it if it doesn’t interest us. But I just wonder how Mr. Cubbin plans to put an end to the personalization of his forum posts? What about a great post that also contains some extraneous dribble? Does he plan to read and edit each post to be more in his likeness? What about the person that writes in a light, or humorous, or “baby talk” way as a matter of course and still contributes to good posts?

Would I like to see at least one pay to enter “for professionals” type forum? Oh heck yea. But then again, I’d know from the git go that what I was entering was not your run of the mill forum. But the task of creating such a “baby talk” free forum would seem a daunting job and one that I would certainly not relish. Mr. Cubbin has already made a huge mistake by what seems alienating quite a few of the people that would have made great contributors to such a forum. But maybe that was his intent in the first place?

I've been playing with toy trains (say what you will but's true) since 1978 this time.I have been online since late 1993 and have seen a lot of model rail forums come and go.I have seen some good ones self destruct because of all the so called experts could not agree on anything.I have seen so called modelers that think they are the only ones capable of doing anything MR right.They will forcebly tell you so too.

Most of these guys seem to be in HO.When we had our NTRAK layout set up at a certain show we had NMRA officials (at that time) actually turn their backs on us when they found out we were N scalers.Those good ol boys are no longer NMRA big shots.

Anyway to shorten this novel some I have discovered that even scale specific forums will florish (SP) if the members are friendly and willing to listen to other members ideas,and care about them and their familys.

By the way the head honchos of the NMRA in this area now are model railroaders and treat all scales the same.

Remember Kidz,just cause it ain't Z don't mean their isn't anything useful about it.

I posted this yesterday: 1-220.blogspot.com/2011/11/is-this-really-necessary.html

I've since changed the ending somewhat to reflect subsequent events. All very sad.

All,

So why if no specific group or person was singled out in John Cubbin's article has this been taken with such offense here on ZCentral? It hasn't even broken the sound barrier at Trainboard or Yahoo? Just curious? I use ZCentral as a wonderful resource site to see what some great modelers are currently doing in Z scale and don't post much here so I am lost as to why this is taking on a personal offense to a group of great adult modelers who enjoy the hobby and can not see past a comment made on a private blog site?

John