Brave Suggestion...

Being busy in a larger scale made me miss the dustup. But you get this on all forums. I don't think it is good idea to add a "critique" forum because the problem is that giving and receiving critique is hard. You will get there in the same problems as here. Better would be if those asking for critique would grow a thicker skin. Getting the end of the stick isn't fun but you need to be grown up enough to get the salient points out of it and forget the rest. Don't get into polemics and semantics.

I do agree up to a point that ZCS is a bit cutesy, everything is fine and dandy. Nothing wrong with it when it comes to the way we communicate but it can give a false impression of real world achievement.

To be honest I have sometimes written and deleted posts because I didn't dared to post them here.

On the other hand on other forums it is a bit too much of the other way round, you can't do anything good if it isn't museum display work.

So I don't know if it isn't better this way. Maybe because of it some will never reach their limit and could do better. Maybe others will find a valuable place here because they get scared away somewhere else.

You loose some, you gain some...

Johan and John, Good topic. You two were not around in the earliest days of ZCS. It was common to have dustups over critical comments of someone's work. Feelings were hurt and those that felt 'above' that sort of thing drifted away. Some stayed and as the years passed, some just hung around for the 'excitement' of the bickering. Some just stayed simply to be a pain in the ass like they really are anyway. Brad at one time had 5 moderators. At some point, not sure when it got down to three moderators, and Brad didn't like the tone of the site. He gave me the unasked for title of 'master moderator' with virtually all the powers and want a clean and happy site. He had family health issues to deal with and just couldn't do the 'big' job anymore. I took the job willing knowing it was a no-win deal. I did it because he needed help and if WE needed ZCS at all, then I was going to have to to the job or NO ZCS. The bottom line here is that like all of these sites in any discipline only 10% of the membership is active. That still leave a 160 members here from all walks of life, each having their own idea of Nirvana. ZYahoo has fallen by the way side in recent years for a variety of reasons. ZCS has a good core of members and I will miss you all after June 20. I find it funny that those that want ZCS to be a bit more 'edgy' are the same backslappers and glad handers you see on Trainboard. This has vexed me for quite awhile. Why do folks want to play the fool here, and not on Trainboard? Some double standards here I'm thinking. So what are we left with here at ZCS? I would say that over the years, as modelers increase their own skills, they become a bit blind and forgot that they were beginners once themselves. They forgot that encouragement in a difficult hobby with so many different disciplines is daunting to a newcomer. This blindness dulled these more skilled modelers to be less likely to answer the same old questions and give a helping hand in photo critiquing. I understand this. It is human nature to be less tolerant of those 'beneath' us. This left ZCS the with some modelers and members that were only slightly farther along in their own modeling skills, and me and a few others, to be the encouragers to the new. Basically it is like someone in grade 3 congratulating someone in grade 1 on a job well done. If our grade 8 folks won't do the job, or become belittlers of the new, then no website in any disciple will be a complete success. So, what's wrong? Maybe me. Maybe it is those that consider themselves above others and just can't be bothered.
As far as a Brave Suggestion. This would not bother me in the slightest. It could be a door that once opened and entered any entrant would have to take their lumps. In fact I really like the idea. Maybe it will appear. Not on my watch as it ends next week. But this is a good idea. Would it work? Probably not. But worth a try.
There will be some changes coming here I'm sure. Don't know what and I don't know necessarily why. We'll just have to see what the next evolution is. Cheers, Jim CCRR:)

Jim,
You sure make some valid observations relating to new comers, oldies, expressing opinions of workmanship, etc.

It is hard to stand up in front and tell folks, 'ok, take your best shot' By that I mean to ask for honest and perhaps brutal assessment of either your picture taking or modeling skills. However, with that said, I can see some merit and value to a site or aspect of a forum where you could post your ideas and photos of your work and ask for an honest "constructive" criticism of one's work. Notice I said "constructive".......

It might be a good thing for us to post some pictures of our projects and ask folks to give their honest opinion of our work or better yet, their suggestions on how they think we could have done it better or differently.

It might be good for each one of us to stand up front from time to time and ask for our "helpful" lumps to be administered with TLC, but truthfulness.

The one nice thing about asking for an honest appraisal is the fact that anyone's comments can be easily disregarded and merely thought of an an opinion, and as we all well know, opinions are like rear ends.......we all have one.

And opinions are purely subjective, which means they aren't fact, but just view points by that individual.

We as a modeling group certainly cover the entire field of experiences and talent, so there will be many varied examples of both good, bad and the ugly when it comes to sharing examples of our hobby.

The one point that should be stressed above all is that the opinion or review expressed should not be done with any sort of malice or contempt for the person or workmanship being appraised.

It is all right to dislike or even hate someone's efforts, but if that is your honest opinion, then it would certainly be in the best interest of not creating hate and discontent, plus crushing the person's feelings who asked for an opinion or wished to gain further knowledge about a particular subject, etc. to not express their opinion.

I think it is safe to say that everyone of us without exception would like to increase their knowledge level in this hobby and also their quality of workmanship.
I doubt there is anyone who would enjoy slapping paint on a rock and then proudly say...."what do you think of my Mona Lisa?" After all, we all have some sense of decency and pride and since this hobby is absolutely no joke any more, not one of us wants to tear down this hobby in any manner.

We are family, just like poodle owners who write on a poodle forum are family, and since we are family, we siblings are going to certainly disagree amongst ourselves and have strong opinions regarding this or that.

If all of our actions and opinions could be offered with only the desire to 'lift' the other person up and build them up in knowledge and encouragement, then offering our honest thoughts and ideas could be helpful to not only the recipient of the comment, but to the entire community of Z modelers.

The comment you made regarding how more experienced modelers sometimes don't care to critique newbie workmanship is true and sometimes I find myself thinking....."I'll let someone else answer that question" It's not that I couldn't or don't necessarily want to, or have the requested info so much as it is often a case of simply not having the time to sit down and write out a well worded helpful response to the modeler's question.

In the interest of seeing this open expression of our thoughts and feelings on our modeling, I will take a step into the unknown waters of 'free speech' and invite honest critiquing of my most recent work which is still currently on the home page.
I have shown the log loading diorama and also the 'remodeled boxcar home' as examples of kit bashing and scratch building....more bashing than scratching.

I openly invite anyone who would like to critique, criticize, or simply express their thoughts on these examples of modeling. I am not looking to accumulate a bunch of 'atta boys' or 'good job' comments, but if you would like to tell me in 25 words or less...LOL...what you think of my work, or what you think I should have done differently, then please feel free to comment.

Do I have a thick skin that is impervious to any viscous onslaught of my character or talent?..........heck no! And as much as we all want to be admired, respected, and thought well of, I am certainly aware there may be some out there who can't stand me, don't like me, loathe me, or hate me, but that not being the focus of all this spent time and ink, go ahead and express your thoughts on the workmanship, not the modeler. I am not a beginner, nor am I the best, but I do want to increase my knowledge base and skill level, and maybe something you say will benefit not only me, but others as well.

You can walk up to a dog and yell "I love you Rover" and the dog will cower in the corner......and you can also walk up to a dog and in a kind soothing voice say, "I hate your guts and drop dead" and the dog will wag his tail and lick your face.

It's the tone of voice that makes the difference. So let your comments and thoughts be gentle, but above all, honest.

Not looking for anything other than an honest and open exchange of ideas to help each of us grow.

Go ahead, fire away.....I will still like you for who you are and respect you for your talents, be they great or small.

And Jim......I sure hate to see you sail off into the Z modeling sunset. Are you sure you want to pull anchor and sail over the horizon? I for one want to see you continue to be a part of this adventure we call Z scale.

That's my 57 cents worth and I'm sticking to it.

Loren

Loren- Let me cast the first pepple---I'm sure boulders are headed my way---Home is where the heart is... Well done, has character but needs a Satilite Dish or at least a spidery TV antenna. Maybe a barrel to catch the "rain run off" so the nearby "gardens" can be watered during a drought, or used inside your home. Some creeping ivy would be pretty as the couple appears to welcome the "natural" look. A hole in the roof would alow running water INSIDE your home, and a slight bend in your chimaly might add some charm. All said tounge in cheeque..
Fred
Woopz- that's more than 25 words--you can delete as you see fit

Fred wrote:

Loren- Let me cast the first pebble---I'm sure boulders are headed my way---Home is where the heart is... Well done, has character but needs a satellite dish or at least a spidery TV antenna. Maybe a barrel to catch the "rain run off" so the nearby "gardens" can be watered during a drought, or used inside your home. Some creeping ivy would be pretty as the couple appears to welcome the "natural" look. A hole in the roof would allow running water INSIDE your home, and a slight bend in your chimney might add some charm. All said tongue in cheek..
Fred
Woopz- that's more than 25 words--you can delete as you see fit

Ouch Fred, that boulder bounced off my head and fell on my foot.

I'm disgusted with myself for not being able to find the prototype picture that the model was modeled after. In the picture there is only the home with nothing else around it. I of course had to imagine the back side and I forgot to add what appears to be a red rope or extension cord that was hanging by the front door. I don't think it was a hose.....(what purpose would that have served?) I doubt they were ever concerned with washing the sides of their home.

I thought the diorama needed the 'extras' that I put in the scene, but I sure agree with your add on details. I would vote for the spidery antenna since they are so poor they sure can't afford any satellite dish.agree?

I thought of a barrel, but didn't have any on hand...will add later. And more junk around the back would be fitting don't you think?

If I can find some kids and a dog I'll put them around back and let them play to their heart's content.

I need Uncle Earl chopping wood with a chopping block,...what say?

Not sure about the ivy since they can't even water the lawn let along cultivate anything of beauty? I might add a small garden patch out back also, and I think a larger stack of old boards would be fitting.

If you read my original posting notes regarding the scene before I pulled the pictures from the contest, George I think I called him, had gone on a bender and wrecked a 100 car coal consist. Consequently he was summarily fired on the spot and even sued by UP. UP didn't recover a cent, but George's legal counsel cost him everything plus his retirement and 401 K, IRA and even his gun collection.

Pity his long suffering wife who continues to stand, (sit) by him. What else can she do? She has a bad case of shingles and can't hold down work. The kids, when around often scrounge around the railroad yard looking for any scrap metal they can find to sell.

I'm telling you Fred, this family needs Obama's stimulus package all by themselves.

Oops, I better keep politics out of the picture.

Seriously gang, this illustrates exactly what I was talking about in my posting. Let's be open and accepting of positive criticism and suggestions regarding our modeling. I thank Fred for his suggestions and welcome any others. I will post the 'improvements' when I am finished with them.

I will end up with a better product because of Fred's ideas.

Kudos Fred,

Loren the learner:)

I have commented to this thread two days ago, but it took so long to write it, ZCS secretly changed my log in to guest and the message was filed somewhere in cyber space.

Should I comment on this topic? Have I put enough time and energy into the scale to be allowed to comment on this topic?

First of all, I agree that creating a separate forum or thread called "Critique" would eventually be a disaster.


Perhaps a question should be raised to ask, How did we get to this place and topic?

ZCS has been around for quite a few years. I recall two or three major changes to the layout of the site, probably more.

I can honestly say that Z_Scale Yahoo died as a major player in the Z forum when ZCS was being born. Trainboard has been around for a long time but wasn't till ZCS came around and Yahoo Z_Scale was dying that Trainboard "Z" took off. (Don't believe me, ask Robert Ray as he was a moderator for a very long time in Trainboard Z before it took off.)

I joined Yahoo Z_Scale back in late 2003. Was not till first quarter of 2004 that I became active in the forum. My first day on I posted photos of my first ever Z project. A 3 bay rib side covered hopper made entirely from styrene plastic. The group was a buZZ when they saw it. Was when Chat was a heavy item on Sundays and Wednesdays. Bill Kronenberger was a Heavyweight in the forum. Voice chat was great. The atmosphere on the group was so positive it is hard to describe. Searails was a new entity. MTL was soon to be releasing a modern Gunderson Husky with talk of a modern loco in the mix. So much a buZZin. So much positive. But what I recall not too many modelers were posting photos of their work, their creations. So critique was not a hot issue. Was not till more and more modelers started posting lots of photos did this corrective critisiZm be taken as a negative.

What simple fix, if any can stop the mayhem that we all see??? Any suggestions?

I have one!
Forget the phrase- "If you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all!" because it has lead to members biting their tongues and saying anything, sometimes to get Z points. (Guilty)
I suggest this 2 part phrase- "If you don't have anything honest and truthful to say, don't say anything!" and to go along with it "If you don't want honest criticiZm, don't ask!".

Case closed/Problem solved!!!

Now can we get back to playing with our Trains?

Hobo Tim

Tim, Good one. Ultimately playing with trains is what it is all about. Cheers, Jim CCRR:)

Well I am not sure that this or any other Z-scale forum is the cats meow or ultimate forum. They all have their own character and strengths, plus each one has a set of participants as well as set of watchers/listeners in the bleachers.

There are always going to be clashes every now and then as one or the other of us gets p

---

o-- at something said without forethought and reacts instead of responding. Many is the time that I have typed a reaction and killed it for one reason or another, most probably because after I wrote it I realize that I was reacting instead of responding.

I think the secret is to respond rather than react to something that is posted as these posts on this topic illustrate. Often times when we get into trouble it is because it is so darn easy to type a quick reply and vent our spleen and watch the assembled mass scatter to avoid getting wet. Then regroup to fight back with our flame proof umbrellas up.

Whether you have thick skin or not, you got to consider how you would feel receiving the remarks you are about to pontificate and distribute to others. If you like the fire fight then there is no cure but expulsion. If you can choke it down and write it out and delete it then there is redemption.

It is always far easier to take apart something and destroy it than to build it and nurture it. You got to care to do that.

Just sitting here building cabeeses and running trains in the wee hours and thinking/pontificating.

cheerz Garth

An observation - we all get into this hobby, regardless of scale - for a whole variety of reasons. Mine was simply to run trains in a more or less realistic way. I really don't care too much for realistic scenery and buildings, or even if the trains are 100% prototypically accurate. Just so long as they run reasonably well.

Having said that I like ZCS as it is. Whenever there's an outbreak of chair-throwing I simply ignore it. There are better things to do in life....

Houston, we have a conundrum... maybe a catch 23...constructive (genteel) suggestions or none. That is the question. First- Know the person that you are trying to assist. That may be particularly difficult as most us only know each other by an avatar, a few postings and we range the world. We basically keep Z orientated so backgrounds etc are knot known.
Example..one member was excoriated because he typed in capital letters. Upon further edification, this member had extream visual problems. He was still active but decided to withdraw. Both ZCS and he lost.
Second- Along the lines of Tim's comment- don't pick apart someone's work- just because "you can", but truthful constructive comments should be welcomed. We all have strenghts and weakneses in the hobby.
I had a Z friend that was a crackerjack at building from scratch- unhampered by the advent of modern tools, Z railcars, ..but he didn't know jack about painting and decorating. He said he could never find any Z paint. ( By the way his hopper cars were the catylist for Penzee's hoppers).
My first tunnel was a mountain, made of solid wood, with a SWITCH INSIDE. DUH! I've come a long way baby!.
Personal attacks should be avoided at all costs as we are here to have fun.
We all see the hobby through different eyes.
I like grand scenery, and hiding buffaloes and bears in the snow capped mountains or clouds. Others might be put off (but I hide them really good) I also like a layout that is different-- modeling things that few have done before.
I better stop "digging" or I'll reach China.
My 2 cents
Fred
I have met Loren and he took my comments like a manly man, except for the overexuberance of whining.--ONLY KIDDING.
Annonomouse

Fred wrote:

Houston, we have a conundrum...
I have met Loren and he took my comments like a manly man, except for the overexuberance of whining.--ONLY KIDDING.
Annonomouse

Whining? Fred, that is my purr of love for Z scale. Can't help it when I get my motors revving.

I do wonder why more folks don't post....post anything, just post so we can get to know one another better.

One point I sure agree on, we should never, never pick on each other in any way. And if we do inadvertently say the wrong thing, then perhaps some of the others should gently remind the offending poster not to go there. But do it in a private email so as not to flare up anything in public.

I think if two folks want to duke it out and throw garbage at each other they should do it in private, but then wash their hands before they type anything on ZCS.

Another thought on the TV antenna Fred.......can't have one since they use lanterns to light the interior.........remember, I said they were poor........very poor
Loren

Loren-- NO EXCUSES-- the LADY of the castle has to watch her soaps!!Get a stolen bicycle generator like Jim's.
Fred
Remember--- A happy wife makes a happier life!

Fred,
That is a novel idea and I'll have to get a bicycle set up outside with a cord to the
'castle' That will provide a bit of comic relief for the scene....otherwise the whole thing is pretty pathetic.

See what drinking that cheap rot gut will get you? A promising career down the drain.
Loren

Hello Loren,
tealplanes wrote:

Fred,
That is a novel idea and I'll have to get a bicycle set up outside with a cord to the
'castle' That will provide a bit of comic relief for the scene....otherwise the whole thing is pretty pathetic.

Lately I did read an article in a magazine about a young man somewhere in Africa who did build his own wind mill with a power generator. He made his wind mill from small trees, old bicycles and other stuff normally found on the junk yard. The wind mill was about 12 meter high if I remember it right.
I didn't recall what he used as a generator, but correct me if I'm wrong can't you just use an old electric motor for this purpose? But even so the wind mill did work and the generator made enough electric power to have light in his hut and watch TV...

so there's no excuse not to have a TV antenna, and letting the wife watching her daily soaps...

...besides, making a windmill like this is another challenge in Z again...

Sorry, but this is just another of my weird ideas I get reading to much in magazines and books...

Uwe,

That is a great idea........will put it into the scene and that will make Fred happy knowing his cousin can watch her soaps.

Loren

Loren,

I like the idea of the satellite dish better. It speaks to the skewed priorities of some people.

Find the dish in this photo:

www.flickr.com/photos/44704258@N06/4338941433/

Jerry

And her beloved spousal unit can run his trains while she is on the "Training bike"
Working off all those twinkies.

I really don't like those posts made with a random generator.

Johan- what is your reasoning. All the previous posts were made in jest. What, no sense of humor?
the following are facts:
There IS a man in the states that runs his Z trains via bicycle powered generator.
People do get fat on twinkies and then use an exersise bike to work it off- get GREEN and hook it up to a generator.
And there are disrepaired domiciles with big satilite dishes.
And there was a man who got off a murder conviction on the twinkie defense.
What about a two story outhouse. That must be PC incorrect to about half the population- the ones on the bottom.
Please explain--- many of us have been almost "there" and done that!
Fred