My Z scale wish list.....

I enjoyed your article Joe, and I agree with a lot of what you say.

I think there is a fine line in production quantities, if the market is swamped then we humans have the habit of "putting the purchase off" but if we know it is limited we bite, I think this may also be the case if we know it will be released again in the future.

If I was a manufacturer I would prefer to sell out than have shelves full of stock, (I agree with you tealplanes) I’m guessing but AZL had a big sale on the high cubes recently this would suggest that there was excess stock, and in order to move these items there was a discount, but then the market (us) expects this all the time and may put off purchases thinking there may be a discount around the corner, or it will be re-released at a later date, its all about creating a market I suppose.

My 2c

betto wrote: ...if the market is swamped then we humans have the habit of "putting the purchase off" but if we know it is limited we bite, I think this may also be the case if we know it will be released again in the future.

Unless it truly is a collectable and labeled as such, this is not something we necessarily need to do for larger manufacturers of “toys”. We can go into a store and still find some of the same toys we played with as a child if we look around a little. Classic Etch A Sketch is still around, Hasbro brought back the classic 12" GI JOE Action Figures. Mattel brought back the original 1959 teenage fashion model Barbie doll. The Original Big Wheel can still be had. The classic edition 86-piece set of Lincoln Logs is still out there. Not to mention the classic board games we all played are still on the shelves.

So why are these still on the shelves, or in other cases, why were they brought “out of retirement”? Because the companies had the insight to know that people still wanted them, and that they would sell yet again. Sure, maybe not in the quantities they once did in their heyday, but enough to make a good profit.

Why don’t MTL and AZL do this? I firmly believe it all goes back to poor profit management. Just think of how many sales are lost to customers that simply can’t afford an item at this very moment in time because something just a bit more important popped up… IE. They’re having a baby… the car broke down (for the second time this month)… they’re moving out of state (or out of country)… they just bought a new house… their wife said their spending too much on toy trains… or they just bought a new AZL Big Boy! They may never spend that dollar again, because that item will never be available again.

Hmm... maybe we should add a 1:220 scale model of Wall Street to our Z scale wish list. That'll help maximize profits in a flash.

Zcratchman_Joe wrote: Classic Etch A Sketch is still around, Hasbro brought back the classic 12" GI JOE Action Figures. Mattel brought back the original 1959 teenage fashion model Barbie doll. The Original Big Wheel can still be had. The classic edition 86-piece set of Lincoln Logs is still out there. Not to mention the classic board games we all played are still on the shelves.

So why are these still on the shelves, or in other cases, why were they brought “out of retirement”? Because the companies had the insight to know that people still wanted them, and that they would sell yet again. Sure, maybe not in the quantities they once did in their heyday, but enough to make a good profit....

I'm not sure Joe that 'insight' is the only reason for bringing back some of the 'oldies'. If you look at the huge amount of JUNK toys that teach children nothing except to entertain and pretend you are killing aliens or some stupid thing, you can readily see that some of these old toys had real teaching and learning value to them.

What can a kid possible learn from some of these crazy toys that are pushed upon kids at every commercial?

Lincoln logs, bricks, marbles, erector sets, Big Wheels, and on and on can not only entertain in a wholesome way, but teach and help kids expand their minds in healthy ways. Value of a Big Wheel?..........exercise for the fat kids we are now rearing because we love junk food so much.

Maybe, just maybe, some manufacturers realize that we as a nation in so many ways are going to pot and they are doing their little share to try to keep some true value alive in this country. Maybe, but it is probably driven by the bottom line of trying to make a buck.

Guess I better not get started..........

tealplanes wrote: ...exercise for the fat kids we are now rearing because we love junk food so much...

Hey watch it! I'm one of those fat kids!

New track pieces for MTL track. Bigger radius track. I think they would do well to make complete starter kits. Track, train, caboose the works. Even if it is the F7.Throw in a couple of simple cast buildings or accessories, tractor or a load or something. Maerklin sold tons of those little banana car starter sets. German store owners tell me starter sets in all scales always sell well. If someone sees Z at a show or online, and they go to the brick hobby shop in town (if there are still any around) it is kind of hard for folks to get fired up on Z if there is to be had is just a couple of cars or and engine in the corner. How many started in N or HO with those little Bachmann sets? Get them hooked with something they could play with NOW, out of the box, they will buy more Z stuff, more Z stuff will be made, everyone is happy. Make nice gift too.

My wish list involves more reasonably priced locos and rolling stock so that more of the people who are interested in Z scale can actually afford to get into Z scale.AZL has a perfectly good start on a line of EMD 4 axle locos with the GP-38-2.

I would dare say that MTL could build a good quality loco in the same price range as the GP38-2 but it seems to me that all either company wants to do is make all the money they can get with faulty product.

Then of course there is the collector who has to have one of everything Z that they will stash in a closet and never use.The upside ? of this is all that sealed in factory air they have in storage.

If you don't understand the factory air comment,it is an old joke about opening a MTL jewelcase and letting the "factory" air out and destroying the collectability of the car in the case because the air is no longer from Medford,OR..

Wish list, Robs are you listening?:

How about an AZL starter kit. Now that the 38's are out and there is a boat load of variety cars, throw in a loop of track from Rokuhan or MTL, remember MTL started with Marklin loops and, the extra surprise a Snail Speed controller.

This way people have everything for RTR set and are introduced to the product line and with controller have nothing extra to get except a 9V battery.

The more simple the intro to the scale, the more likely people will buy more. I started with the Marklin set and was hooked.

Oh we are listening. Yes we are!! Starter sets have been on our radar for some time. I think the GP38s are the perfect loco for them!

Rob

Everyone like Santa Fe And they have those cast stations too. Just need a caboose. Mike and a couple of heavyweight cars might be too much, but still doable. Put it in a nice big pretty package. Be nice if BOTH companies came out with start sets. This would be a point that would put Z closer to the level of N. Even the brick hobby shops could sell those without sticking their necks out.

Kelley wrote: Even the brick hobby shops could sell those without sticking their necks out.

Again Kelly, you hit the nail on the head here.

After all of these years, Z Scale still isn't considered a viable scale by hobby shops. I believe the older, well established, hobby shops don’t carry it for three reasons; 1. they waited for the NMRA to take the scale more seriously, and 2. at the same time the scale started out as such an expensive adventure that they didn’t want to invest until it proved itself doable by their kind of store, and 3. they had an affordable set they could put on their shelves. Now I fear after all this time, they (the LHS’s) have heard it all before, and when they hear the words “Z Scale”, it goes in one ear and out the other. And then there are those that may have tried it a long time ago and lost their azz due to its price-point (once burned, twice shy).

And any newer stores probably haven’t done anything with the scale because they just don’t realize that they could make a buck on it. And right now they probably couldn’t. Without affordable starter sets, the scale can’t gain any headway in a store. If a person buys a starter set and likes it, they’re bound to (almost need to) come back to the store to buy more track, locos, cars, and accessories, all of which will make the LHS owner much more money than the initial starter set ever could.

What we need is ANY of the manufacturers to come out of the closet and take the chance on an affordable starter set [And not their idea of affordable, but the new buyer’s idea of affordable – otherwise, why even bother?]

What we need is someone with some clout to pull the idea all together and shove it down the manufacturer’s throats until they have to open their little closet door to breath and they do something to help the scale in this, such a big, way. EVERY manufacturer in Z Scale, as well as EVERY Z Scale consumer would benefit.

One “tiny” step for model railroading, one giant leap for Z Scale.

Joe

Quote: After all of these years, Z Scale still isn't considered a viable scale by hobby shops.
I believe the older, well established, hobby shops don’t carry it for three reasons; 1. they waited for the NMRA to take the scale more seriously, and

Reply: I really doubt that, if there was a dollar in it they would stock it, thats business.

Quote: 2. at the same time the scale started out as such an expensive adventure that they didn’t want to invest until it proved itself doable by their kind of store,and 3. they had an affordable set they could put on their shelves.

Reply: Marklin's best seller in z is the starter pack marklin.shptron.com/p/m%E4rklin-z-freight-starter-set and the retail is $205 possibly cheaper online. going since the 70's. MTL dont seem to consistantly have them available so they must sell? it will always be more expencive, the internet has made it alot more price competitive and kept it alive.

Quote: Now I fear after all this time, they (the LHS’s) have heard it all before, and when they hear the words “Z Scale”, it goes in one ear and out the other. And then there are those that may have tried it a long time ago and lost their azz due to its price-point (once burned, twice shy).

Reply: Price alway been more than N & HO, the biggest competitor is its size, cheap and easy to post so the on-line stores can afford to stock them and sell them cheaper than the LHS he cant compete with this so why would you invest 50k to stock it?

Quote: And any newer stores probably haven’t done anything with the scale because they just don’t realize that they could make a buck on it.

Reply: Supply and demand, if no one askes for it why stock it, you would need 5 - 10+ regular buyers to justify stocking it Id say.

Quote: Without affordable starter sets, the scale can’t gain any headway in a store.

Reply: Marklin has them at $200 thats affordable and there are cheaper Japanese z available.

Quote: If a person buys a starter set and likes it, they’re bound to (almost need to) come back to the store to buy more track, locos, cars, and accessories, all of which will make the LHS owner much more money than the initial starter set ever could.

Reply: Or they would use the LHS as a library and then go order it online 20% cheaper, times are tough every dollar counts, thats why most LHS have an online store, to catch the librarians...

Quote: What we need is ANY of the manufacturers to come out of the closet and take the chance on an affordable starter set [And not their idea of affordable, but the new buyer’s idea of affordable – otherwise, why even bother?]

Reply: What is affordable $50? thats probably not going to happen. Marklin have them and so do MTL and mabe AZL with the 38's.

Quote: What we need is someone with some clout to pull the idea all together and shove it down the manufacturer’s throats until they have to open their little closet door to breath and they do something to help the scale in this, such a big, way. EVERY manufacturer in Z Scale, as well as EVERY Z Scale consumer would benefit.

Reply: I would like to see them try that, manufacturing model trains or toys as you call them is probibly more hassle for them hence the cost to produce, they want to deal in the millions not the 100 of this and 200 of that, this hobby will change forever over the next few years with 3d printing, you can make all you want from home for a fraction of the cost.

Even though a LOT of us started out in Z with the old chestnut(walnut)Märklin standby starter set, it and the Japanese Z sets are not the same thing as an American start set in an American store. Märklin had the tiny "cute" factor, the "new and different " (back in the day) the "exotic European "factor, and the "its got to be good becasue it is made in Germany" factor. Japanese and German start sets and NA start sets are apples and oranges.
I do not know how many Mom and Pop stores sold Märklin start sets. I got mine in Germany in 84 and have pretty much stayed over here. I know there are hobby shops that specialize in imported trains, but aren't they the exception to the rule?
The brick and mortar shops I have visited in the States, if they have Z at all are just bits and pieces under the counter somewhere. I do not know why anyone would argue against a North American Z start set. MTL could pull it off right away.
The boss of the LHS here in Germany told me long ago, that start sets are the best thing they have (they always have a bunch out for Christmas) to get people to buy trains. Grandma sees the set, they can buy it on impulse for their grand kids. Nothing else that has to be bought. Want more, there is the expansion sets. (though the start sets might be cheaper than getting the parts individually, the expansion sets are always the same price as if you got the pieces one at a time)

betto wrote:

Quote: I really doubt that, if there was a dollar in it they would stock it, that’s business.

Reply 1: There is not a dollar in it until people actually want it, and being considered a legitimate scale was a big part of that want (or demand).

Quote: Marklin's best seller in z is the starter pack ... and the retail is $205 possibly cheaper online. going since the 70's...

Reply 2: You're not seriously comparing a 40 year old Euro locomotive to today's NA standards, are you? I was speaking of hobby shops in the States. The majority of kids don't want to walk into a hobby shop and plop down over 200 bucks unless it's for a loco that runs great and looks like one they see every day (or close to it).

Quote: Price alway been more than N & HO, the biggest competitor is its size, cheap and easy to post so the on-line stores can afford to stock them and sell them cheaper than the LHS he cant compete with this so why would you invest 50k to stock it?

Reply 3: It sounds as though you're saying that because the "on-line stores" don't have the overhead of a brick and mortar store that they can sell for much less than a real store? Yes, this alone might be a reason online stores can sell cheaper, however did you know that a LOT of these "on-line stores" are ALSO brick and mortar stores? They learned a long time ago that in order to make it in this world, something else needed to be done and so they started selling online. I've said it before, and here I'll say it again, if the smaller LHS's don't get with the times and sell online in addition to selling via actual store front, then like so many other businesses these days, they are doomed.

Quote: Supply and demand, if no one askes for it why stock it, you would need 5 - 10+ regular buyers to justify stocking it Id say.

Reply 4: If no one ASKS for it????? How the hell do they even know Z exists unless they see it in the window of their LHS in the first place?

Quote: Marklin has them at $200 thats affordable and there are cheaper Japanese z available.

Reply 5: See reply #2.

Quote: Or they would use the LHS as a library and then go order it online 20% cheaper, times are tough every dollar counts, thats why most LHS have an online store, to catch the librarians...

Reply 6: So if most LHS's already HAVE an online store, then what's your excuse for saying they lose sales to online stores??? You make no sense.

Quote: What is affordable $50? thats probably not going to happen. Marklin have them and so do MTL and mabe AZL with the 38's.

Reply 7: First of all MTL never had a starter set. They had part of a starter set (lacking the one thing needed to make it go - a power supply of some sort). I can just imagine how many people didn't read the fine print and were plenty pissed off when they got home and found out the train wouldn't move. Next, as for Marklin having them... again see Reply #2. Maybe AZL??? time will tell. And $50.00 is a bit on the low side, but you just don’t get the point. Put together a starter set that is inexpensive enough (the hell with the profit - just above cost) and of good enough quality to sway buyers back into the store to buy more of your brand. It's done all the time in business.

Quote: ...this hobby will change forever over the next few years with 3d printing, you can make all you want from home for a fraction of the cost.

Reply 8: It will change for a (very) few. Maybe the home do-it-yourself'ers and the eBay buyers that they might cater to. But do you seriously think that the majority of model train buyers will also be getting involved in 3D printing? Or that the minute number of actual (in the next few years) 3D users will have any effect on model train car sales? Of that in the next few years, home affordable 3D printing will put out a good enough quality train car that pad printing logos etc. will not be required. Or that it will put out a fully assembled and rolling box car of the caliber of AZL?

Never mind. Sometimes I just don't understand others logic.

Joe

Zcratchman_Joe wrote:

betto wrote:

Never mind. Sometimes I just don't understand others logic.

Joe

I find your replies a little aggressive, you believe z scale is dead as per your blog and you want everyone else to agree with you?, we all have opinions and we should all respect that, and not be bombastic/aggressive, starts to sound more like an argument than a healthy discussion?

I think you should mortgage your house plow heaps of dough into z with cheap starter sets and locos ect and anything else you find expencive then come back and tell us your experience until then its just a blog and hot air.

Z scale is not dead until enough people like you keep telling us it is, mabe future z scale modelers come here read your post and blogs and run a 100 miles?

Im not looking for a flame war but I feel we all should be comfortabe enough to say what we want without being intimidated buy individuals strong feelings wether right or wrong.

Have a coke and a smile and ........

Looks like the thread I started has turned into arguments.
Is there a way to close this thread?

betto wrote: I find your replies a little aggressive, you believe...

Excuse me, but I was “aggressive”??? I thought I was simply defending my position opposing your eight (8) quotes of my previous six (6) paragraph reply to Kelly’s post. (BTW, who was the one being “bombastic” then?) I thought we were both doing our best to express our opinions.

And now you miss-quote my personal blog??? {In my recent blog post ( www.zrailroads.com/blog/2013/01/13/theres-no-future-in-z-scale/ ) I did not say Z was dead. In fact, the word “dead” wasn’t even IN the article! I said there’s no “future” in Z Scale. The word future was in quotes and was an obvious headline “attention getter” used in conjunction with my thoughts on Z Scale model railroad customers today being incapable of planning what to purchase in the future due to short supply.}

Then you get personal about my blog yet again and me being full of “hot air”? Your remarks are your opinion and I respect that you are able to have your own opinions, but just how did my personal blog get involved in this discussion again? Granted I mentioned one of my blog posts earlier up in this topic, but that post really had nothing to do with your recent 8 quote blast of my recent remarks on Kelly’s post. Seems you’re hunting for some sort of hurtful ammunition here.

And are you seriously worried that what I say here, or on my blog, will drive thousands of prospective model railroaders away from Z Scale? If so sir, you give me more credit than what I am due. I couldn’t even get current Z scalers to get off their azzes and do anything about the current state of Z scale affairs if I wanted. However, I do think I do my best to get people thinking and talking, which is a start. Yes, I have mentioned the word dead before, but more often than not you’ve heard me state that the world of model railroading as a whole is slowly dying. But this is due to influences much bigger than Z Scale.

I’m truly sorry if I made you feel intimidated in any way, but judging from your remarks here, you can stand up for yourself pretty well.

Joe

Joe, you should appreciate this post as it won't cause too much controversy..... I hope.

I think one very large contributing factor that may be behind the slow decay of model railroading as a whole is the fact that kids now days are so bombarded with video games that teach only how to kill and maim the enemy.

We are not teaching our children the things in life that have value and respect. Kids now days are more interested in the immediate gratification of blowing something up or destroying it in some violent way instead of learning skills and being educated in our countries history. Model railroading does both, not only exposing children to learning new skills, but also about our heritage involving railroading in general.

I come right out and tell mothers with small children at train shows to do their children a favor and NOT buy them video games, as it teaches them practically nothing. Instead they should introduce their kids to model railroading no matter the scale.

Kids can learn life skills with model railroading, including carpentry, electronics, history, landscaping and scenery ideas, and the list could go on.

Model railroading can be a life long hobby, indoor, outdoor, family oriented, clean, educational, making friends in new places, travel, experiencing different cultures even.

I just wish more parents realized the importance in exposing their children to things of value, which model railroading certainly is.

Ok, now folks can disagree if they wish :o)

Loren, I agree wholeheartedly. But I would not say that all (most ?) kids are interested in blowing things up. My girlfriend’s kid (14 years old) spends hour after hour playing Minecraft; a game in which all he does is “build” crap all day. It drives me up a wall that he doesn’t have enough “real life” ambition to build a train layout. But he came with prior “boob-tube” conditioning. I fully believe this “must have a video screen in front of one’s face at all times” addiction is as strong as an alcohol or nicotine addiction. This is why I’m so glad that companies such as Roco are not only bringing the video screen into model railroading, but that they are making it so easy to do so. Due to his pre-conditioning, this might not get my girlfriend’s son off his lazy butt to build a layout, but it should really help with future generations.

[In conjunction with my previous remarks (made here and elsewhere) that model railroaders are a dying breed…] All along, I’ve always said that in order to save the hobby what we need to do is get the kids interested. And to do that, we need to bring the boob-tube into the picture. I figured it was a last shot for the hobby and a while back, before I heard about Roco’s new Z21 system, I had already started planning the software to do so. And yes, I know there are other systems that allow the use of the video screen, but to the best of my knowledge none of these other systems have actual “games” that a kid can play… as well as see his actual layout from the cab of the train he has going around the tracks with the use of a camera loco. But Roco really thought this new system through thoroughly (sorry, but right now their camera loco is HO only – but it’s a start).

I wish more companies would do this same sort of thing.

PS See, what goes around, comes around... it's back to a "wish list"!

Joe

Ok Joe, since we are back to a 'wish list' mentality.............I wish I had more money. Any guess why? As if you didn't already know.

Z, must have more Z :o)