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Smooth running with good power supplies
- andyjbj
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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 10 months ago #7061
by andyjbj
Smooth running with good power supplies was created by andyjbj
Friends, smooth running with attractive starting and stopping continues to be a challenge for me, although it's improved. I wonder about this Gaugemaster device people bring up from time to time. Is it possible to use this item alongside the Snail Speed controller, which has really improved things for me? If so, how many would I need, say, for a Z-bend based layout...one for each block, each mainline, or just one for the layout?
Thanks
Thanks
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- SJ-BAZ-man
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14 years 11 months ago - 14 years 11 months ago #7063
by SJ-BAZ-man
Replied by SJ-BAZ-man on topic Re:Smooth running with good power supplies
The Guage Master (and others like it) are installed in series one lead of the track power. When there is a load connected (proper wheel, wipers, etc.), it has 0 effect. If the load is disconnected, say with dirty track or poor mechanical contact, an EXTREMELY high 400v Peak-to-Peak voltage is created across the track (at EXTREMELY safe LOW current). This helps 'punch' through the crud or arc over the bad connection. However, the power is next to nothing, not enough to run even the tiniest motor. However, it does appear to keep DC motors running better. It is still no excuse or solution for poor track or wheel cleaning or wiper pickups. No Z scale loco is going to crawl or run very slow at every point in the layout and, especially when starting from a stop somewhere. Track uneveness (lots of of up and down motion, like old prototype track in videos, just makes it worse as this will tend to make wheels come off the track, even for the slightest of time and the truck-to-frame contacts the same, rocking back and forth, side to side. Lot of possibilities here.
A quality controller, like the Zthek, Joerger, Varipulse and the like that can produce full track voltage pulses using Pulse Width Modulation will run the motor the best at slow speeds as it really punches the motor at the fullest voltage but only for a brief fraction of the time. Compare this to a typical 0 to 10 volt controller where there may be only 3 volts to the motor, the motor doesn't have the energy to overcome the inertia and friction at these low levels.
Not sure why yours are running poorly but you could try one. I think I still have one way back in DC days. $30 if I do.
A quality controller, like the Zthek, Joerger, Varipulse and the like that can produce full track voltage pulses using Pulse Width Modulation will run the motor the best at slow speeds as it really punches the motor at the fullest voltage but only for a brief fraction of the time. Compare this to a typical 0 to 10 volt controller where there may be only 3 volts to the motor, the motor doesn't have the energy to overcome the inertia and friction at these low levels.
Not sure why yours are running poorly but you could try one. I think I still have one way back in DC days. $30 if I do.
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- garthah
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14 years 11 months ago #7065
by garthah
cheerz Garth
Replied by garthah on topic Re:Smooth running with good power supplies
If you are using a block system with more than one DC cab then you need one Gauge Master per DC Cab. If you have only one DC power supply then one is all you need. The Gauge Master is not for use on DCC systems.
cheerz Garth
cheerz Garth
cheerz Garth
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- andyjbj
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14 years 10 months ago - 14 years 10 months ago #7109
by andyjbj
Replied by andyjbj on topic Re:Smooth running with good power supplies
I do understand how the Snail Speed controller and Gaugemaster work, but then....I'm getting the sense it's either-or, that having both at once would not really improve performance?
One thing that helped as of late was making a unique and interesting wheel cleaner. I should post some photos of this nifty device, I am very proud of it
One thing that helped as of late was making a unique and interesting wheel cleaner. I should post some photos of this nifty device, I am very proud of it
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- SJ-BAZ-man
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14 years 10 months ago #7110
by SJ-BAZ-man
Replied by SJ-BAZ-man on topic Re:Smooth running with good power supplies
You could use both the GuageMaster and a PWM-based controller like the Joerger, Zthek and others but it should not be necessary. The full voltage pulses of the PWM controller should make any loco with clean track, good wheel pickups and properly running motors - reliably crawl. I feel that you shouldn't need a wheel cleaner as they quite frequently slip and therefore self polish. And, they are commonly Nickel or plated steel so don't oxidize like track. Cleaning might help with slippage from oils and crap.
What is more critical is getting good wheel pickup as the loco 'waddles' down the track. Maybe you don't see it, but the wheels are not making continuous contact as they run over joints, wavey track and turnouts. Then, they are trashing back and forth in between the rails and internals of the truck. The wheel wipers have to handle this. Then, the truck rocks side to side, front and rear and, turns. So there will be some loss of electrical pickup here and there, maybe in micro seconds, maybe milliseconds or more but quite frequently. Each one of those in a permenant magnet motor, like a Märklin, while almost immmediately stop during that power outage. If there was a flywheel (kinetic energy), that would help. An MTL GP, SD40 or AZL loco have these flywheels and also a better motor choice that has very low mass and can far more easily begin to turn itself.
Getting the motor in a Märklin to run correctly at low voltage is not easy. The magnetic field has to be strong enough to make the motor and mechanism overcome it's friction (and the motor's own magentic affects). This is where PWM controller has it's advantage over a regular DC power supply. Instead of a steady say, 2V, trying to make the motor run slow, overcoming all that friction, it isn't going to happen. Now consider that same motor with 10V on it and it should scream. So a PWM controller just 'pings' it really really fast but only for a very little each time. Each on of those pings DOES have enough energy to make that motor move, just a little. So as long as you have good electrical pickup, the motor should run well at low speed (assuming all the mechanical mechanism doesn't bind here and there). A 5 pole motor really helps here too as the motor doesn't have to rotate so far with each pulse. Much easier to "kick start".
What is more critical is getting good wheel pickup as the loco 'waddles' down the track. Maybe you don't see it, but the wheels are not making continuous contact as they run over joints, wavey track and turnouts. Then, they are trashing back and forth in between the rails and internals of the truck. The wheel wipers have to handle this. Then, the truck rocks side to side, front and rear and, turns. So there will be some loss of electrical pickup here and there, maybe in micro seconds, maybe milliseconds or more but quite frequently. Each one of those in a permenant magnet motor, like a Märklin, while almost immmediately stop during that power outage. If there was a flywheel (kinetic energy), that would help. An MTL GP, SD40 or AZL loco have these flywheels and also a better motor choice that has very low mass and can far more easily begin to turn itself.
Getting the motor in a Märklin to run correctly at low voltage is not easy. The magnetic field has to be strong enough to make the motor and mechanism overcome it's friction (and the motor's own magentic affects). This is where PWM controller has it's advantage over a regular DC power supply. Instead of a steady say, 2V, trying to make the motor run slow, overcoming all that friction, it isn't going to happen. Now consider that same motor with 10V on it and it should scream. So a PWM controller just 'pings' it really really fast but only for a very little each time. Each on of those pings DOES have enough energy to make that motor move, just a little. So as long as you have good electrical pickup, the motor should run well at low speed (assuming all the mechanical mechanism doesn't bind here and there). A 5 pole motor really helps here too as the motor doesn't have to rotate so far with each pulse. Much easier to "kick start".
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- zthek
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14 years 10 months ago #7114
by zthek
Replied by zthek on topic Re:Smooth running with good power supplies
Jeff is right. When we ran DC locomotives at the train shows (feels like a decade ago), never used GaugeMaster. Someone (sometimes me} wiped the track in every couple of hours with alcohol via a clean rag , and my F7s had no problem to pull 30-40 cars all day long. I did a good wheel cleaning and vacuum the track every morning, then go... And we're talking about ten scale miles of track.
Lajos
Lajos
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