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My plan for the in-between-layout...

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8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #7851 by hokenstrom
hokenstrom created the topic: My plan for the in-between-layout...
This is the plan for the layout I am building.


As you can see it is a small shelf layout - the topside is 3,7x0.40m and the left side is situated in a window and along a wall above a sofa - that's why it's so long and narrow - 3.5m long and between 0.5m and 0.1m wide.
It's a sawmill in the middle which is the main scenery with a large pond with a narrow bridge over the pond for dropping timber in the lake.

On the top right I have plans for a helix to a second level - accidently that is the only one I have built - I will photograph it when I return home so you can see that one. It's more a straightforward prairiescene but more on that later.
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8 years 5 months ago #7852 by hokenstrom
hokenstrom replied the topic: Re:My plan for the in-between-layout...
Here is the image...
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8 years 5 months ago #7853 by Socalz44
Socalz44 replied the topic: Re:My plan for the in-between-layout...
Petter, Very nice. We don't see shelf railroads very often in Z scale. I don't know why, it is a great scale for shelves. Maybe this will help some members. Is this layout European or North American? Cheers, Jim CCRR:)

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8 years 5 months ago #7854 by hokenstrom
hokenstrom replied the topic: Re:My plan for the in-between-layout...
I am building it as a North American line, it's as you might imagine freelanced with lumber, some ore-transports, cattle and general cargo as freight. I will use one F7A+A (märklin) and one GP-9 from UP, one GP-35 from Northern Pacific and one GP-7 from Pennsylvania as locos, the rolling stock is a mix of lasercut kits and assorted hoppers.

The Sawmill is the big one from Nansen Street models and is combined with a Lew Skroo's and a few sheds from GC Laser to make a decent sized and plausible mill. The Sawmill is ready except for some signs and the chimneys that I will mount when the mill is in it's place on the layout. I am laying track and building the sheds at the moment.

On the left side of the mill I will put a large house, at the moment it's the famous Bate's mansion from "Psycho" made of paper and the furniture factory from Fanno Creek Designs (a fabulous kit).


If anyone have any thoughts of how to construct the helix and how large they need to be you are welcome to give me advice...

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8 years 5 months ago #7855 by ausman2001
ausman2001 replied the topic: Re:My plan for the in-between-layout...
Welcome to the forum Petter, and that's turning into a great layout that you're building there.

I'm sure Jim is right about Z beng great for shelf layouts, and it is surprising that more aren't built. I just wonder if us older Z modellers were turned against them when the late and great John Armstrong decreed back in about 1980 that Z would be more of a running than a switching scale.

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8 years 5 months ago #7858 by Kez
Kez replied the topic: Re:My plan for the in-between-layout...
Look here for a z-scale helix:

http://www.ashlintrains.com/servlet/the-Helix-Elevation-Systems-cln-Z-Scale/Categories

These look like a nice design to me.

I have purchased once from this company, and had a satisfactory experience (did NOT buy a helix, but some Z detail pieces).

Hope this helps.

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8 years 5 months ago #7864 by bambuko
bambuko replied the topic: Re:My plan for the in-between-layout...
Petter, I like your shelf layout!
It makes a lot of sense here in Europe, where we do not have vast basements that seem to be available to our US colleagues.
Plus it makes a welcome change from the usual suitcase things :silly:
I look forward to seeing more pictures.
I personally would never use helix in Z on the grounds of practicality and access.
Z trains can be temperamental and imagine trying to get to it at hidden in the depth of helix...
Also the gradient on the helix plus tight radius - you won't be able to use long trains :unsure:

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8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #7870 by hokenstrom
hokenstrom replied the topic: Re:My plan for the in-between-layout...
Actually this layout will be in a room I share with my fiance - she uses it as a sewing studio and I build my models in it and it also doubles as a library - which is why I decided to go with z-scale rather than N.

The helix part is the one I think of the most - I would gain so much track if I could use 2+ levels so I am willing to take the problematic access to the track.
I am working on a solution to the helix which is inspired by the helixes used by MIWULA in Hamburg where they use large screws with the ply resting on bolts set to correct height. I am a bit curious of your experiences with gradients and curves - is a radius of 25cm too tight?

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8 years 5 months ago #7873 by bambuko
bambuko replied the topic: Re:My plan for the in-between-layout...
Petter,
25cm is perfectly fine in itself, but it's the combination of gradient and the radius that causes problems.
As for the gradient alone, 2% is generally considered safe maximum for reliable operation (I know that some people will tell you that you can do more...).
I would rig some temporary test set-up and do thorough testing to make sure that you will be happy the helix, before doing anything permanent.

The other thing to bear in mind (not about helix, but in general) is dust prevention -
have you thought about it?
I like this as an idea, with the layout behind glass:
http://www.n-tram.de/_deu/produkte/minimodule.html

How about this type of cassete instead of helix?
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-6694656723789802042#
You could simplify and use for changing levels?

Both links are N, but equally adaptable to Z in my view

Chris

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8 years 5 months ago #7875 by ausman2001
ausman2001 replied the topic: Re:My plan for the in-between-layout...
Chris's comment on the combination of grade and curve is a very good one. On my laypout I have two grades of about 3.5%, which lead up to a bridge (the layout is a figure 8 configuration). One is straight and the other curved most of the way (the standard 195 mm and 220 mm curves). My E44s will pull a 5 coach D zug train up the straight grade, but they struggle on the curved grade.

Anyway, something to think about and weigh in the balance.

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8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #7876 by ULie
ULie replied the topic: Re:My plan for the in-between-layout...
Hej Petter,

about a helix, who said that it has to be a circle...
...if you extend it to an oval you can get more distance in one full turn, and thus reduce the grade. If my memory isn't to far of, then they also did this at the MiWuLa.

You wrote about using screws and bolts to hold the helix. I don't know if you've seen the website of Jens Wimmel from Switzerland , but he created a layout with two helixes. Have a look at his Julierbahn . In the third row the first picture shows a detail of how he made sure that there isn't any tension from the fixture of the helix.

250mm isn't very thigh for a radii in a helix, but if it is a only circular helix the grade might be to steep, at least if you want to run longer trains. You will need about 40mm height for each turn.

On Jens Wimmels website you can also find more information about helixes. On his Download site you will find three PDF files:

Steigungen im Massstab 1:220
Berechnung einer Gleiswendel
Tabelle der Wendelabmessungen

Sorry, but those files are only in German.

GreetingZ, HilZen,

Uwe

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8 years 5 months ago #7897 by Havoc
Havoc replied the topic: Re:My plan for the in-between-layout...

On my laypout I have two grades of about 3.5%, which lead up to a bridge (the layout is a figure 8 configuration). One is straight and the other curved most of the way (the standard 195 mm and 220 mm curves). My E44s will pull a 5 coach D zug train up the straight grade, but they struggle on the curved grade.


Thanks for that info. This means I'll have a problem in my plans. I was thinking to use about 250 mm radius and I need about 3% grade to be able to fit it where I want.

Got to test that out.

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8 years 4 months ago #8104 by hokenstrom
hokenstrom replied the topic: it continues...
I have included a photo of where I am in my building process:

In the background is the sawmill which is served by the tracks to the left. The far left track is going to be the mainline while the other will serve the mill. The track closest to the camera is the service track for the pond, which is in the background, and the track will go over the pond on a wooden pier/bridge.
I will use the Lew Skroos kit as a goods depot for the sawmill and a few other assorted buildings as well.
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8 years 4 months ago #8105 by hokenstrom
hokenstrom replied the topic: ...and the plan...
Here is the slightly altered layout - the big difference is that I have increased the length of the helix from 1.5m to 2.5m which should give me the desired 4-5cm of height between the levels in the helix.

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8 years 4 months ago #8106 by Socalz44
Socalz44 replied the topic: Re:...and the plan...
Petter, I like large layouts and this is going to be a good one. Cheers, Jim CCRR:)

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8 years 4 months ago #8109 by saundebn
saundebn replied the topic: Re:...and the plan...
Hi Petter ... I'm a bit confused by the layout drawing as I'm finding it hard to detect the elevations for the various sections of the track ... do you happen to have a version of the drawing that separates the upper from lower levels so it is more clear to understand? If you do, that would be great to see.

Thanks, Brad

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8 years 4 months ago #8110 by hokenstrom
hokenstrom replied the topic: Re:My plan for the in-between-layout...
I have omitted the elevationmarkings in this sketch since my layoutprogram (Empire Express for MAC) doesn't support elevation. I write in the elevations as plain text in the program but I will try to explain it to you.

Pond: +0 cm
Sawmill: +0 cm
Entrance to helix: +1cm
The circular track on the right side of the layout (under the helix): -1cm (entrance) - 2 middle and -0.5cm exit.
Coalmine: - 1cm (in a rift between the front of the layout on +0cm and the rear of the layout with +1.5cm)
Cottonfarm: +1.5cm
Track to logging area: -1.5cm rising to + 0 cm
Logging area: +0cm

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8 years 4 months ago #8116 by saundebn
saundebn replied the topic: Re:My plan for the in-between-layout...
Actually, this info helps a lot ... one thing that I didn't get was where was the helix going up to :huh: ... then I returned to your original post and noticed that the second level isn't being shown in this drawing :).

So, when all is said and done, how much of the lower layout will be shadowed by the upper layout?

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8 years 4 months ago #8117 by zmon
zmon replied the topic: Re:My plan for the in-between-layout...
Hey Peter, nice work so far on the layout and design... looks like its going to be a great layout...

About the helix idea and using Ashlin Design's unit... I know Rodney the owner of Ashlin Design, he's a local guy here in Utah, and a Z enthusiest. He has a Z layout he brings to all to local shows to show off his products, as well as to entertain the crowds at his booth.

I can tell you that he has several of them incoprated into his layout which is aproximatly 2.5 x 4 ft. He runs a combination of Marklin and MTL locos and rolling stock (Note: several of his cars are custom projects by me, and he has one of my custumized UP GP35's as well).

He never runs double headed consists because he only uses DC, so only solo lead trains run, and he rips!!! granted he run a bit fast for my personal taste, but he has no problems getting up the twisting and climbing grade of his helix's with well over a dozen cars. I would recomend yo eamil him and ask him his experiance... Note:Jack C. from our club is installing one of his helix's on his home loop. Hope this helps...

Tony B...
Wasatch Z ClubB)

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8 years 4 months ago #8160 by hokenstrom
hokenstrom replied the topic: Re:My plan for the in-between-layout...
I have built the main section of the upper level already and it will be 20cm wide and is at the moment 3 m long. It will be placed 50cm above the lower level with LED lightning to avoid unwanted shadows.

I haven't started the wiring yet but I will begin the layout as a DC system driven by the standard Märklin powerpack with a Gaugemaster Snailspeed controller. I haven't tried the Gaugemaster with my MTL locos but I hope that it will work. My track won't use long consists of cars since it won't be a large scale operation railroad on it - basically it is a logging railroad with some extras on the side coming through.

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